Comments on: Baseball Bleg

By: Karl

Karl — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 22:09:41 +0000

Thanks, Digg! That’s how I read the rules, but it’s good to hear from a guy that close to the source. I agree with your “best advice” too — gotta be able to read your own book. Heh…

By: tgirsch

tgirsch — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:20:13 +0000

I like Digg’s answer. The defense is credited with a DP, but the batter is not charged with one. And since the batter isn’t charged with one, the SF indeed applies, as does the RBI.

By: digglahhh

digglahhh — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:05:56 +0000

In the program, it could go, for example, 9/SF/F/DP.3-H;1×2(96)- but, that doesn’t help. If I had to shorthand it, I’d write something like 9/SF/DP(96). No need to indicate “RBI,” the way you might on an error that could go either way, because the SF implies an RBI – you don’t get one if you don’t drive in a run. The most important thing is to differentiate between DPs charged to the batter and those that are not. A slash is a simple enough way to do so. 63-32 g/dp, as opposed to 643/gdp for example.

I’ve been asked for advice on scorekeeping many times, and my most important piece of advice is that if you are scoring a game for fun, and personal posterity, and not the official record, use whatever method of notation makes intuitive sense. The goal is that you look back on the sheet while cleaning out the drawer five years later, glance at the scoresheet and remember what happened on the play. That certainly trumps the goal of being technically correct in your notation.

It’s kinda like using professional proofreaders’ notation – it’s nice if you know it, but the more important goal is to communicate the changes that need to be made.

By: tgirsch

tgirsch — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:25:52 +0000

So it looks like Karl is right; but how would you mark that on a scoresheet? (I know, I know, you do the computer coding thing.)

By: digglahhh

digglahhh — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:50:34 +0000

Well, just reading the scenario quickly, it’s a SF and RBI for the batter. The nuance is that not all DPs that are credited to the defense are charged to the batter (basically, when it’s not his “fault” he doesn’t get penalized). This is one of those cases; DP, for the defense, no GDP for the batter. Runner on first is not forced and attempts to advance at his own risk. To charge a DP to the batter, the runner basically has to make an out in a force situation. As for the D, all they have to is make two outs on one “pitch” to earn a DP (unless the first and second outs are interrupted by an error – that gets kinda messy).

By: Karl

Karl — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:35:12 +0000

I think you’ve summed it up exactly, including my own inclination for how to score it. I think 10.11 backs up the DP designation, too. There are only two criteria:

1) Two put outs between the time the pitch is delivered and the ball becomes dead or the pitcher next sets up.

2) There were no errors or misplays between the outs.

Why shouldn’t the defense be credited with the DP? (Man, I can’t believe how this echoes the exact crux of the debate in the other forum!)

Another similar situation that I recalled just this morning was the 2006 NLDS game 1 (http://tinyurl.com/5ocp2a), where two runners were tagged out at home on the same play. Boom! Boom!! DP.

Now, take that scenario, add a runner on third who scored, and you’d have to ask, “WTH *not* award the batter with an RBI?” Just seems to be an aversion there, but to me “not all DPs are created equal.”

By: tgirsch

tgirsch — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:08:06 +0000

I can’t say this is the RIGHT way, but this is how I’d score it: Let’s say the runner on third is #10, the runner on second is #15, and the batter is #20. And let’s say #20 flies out to the right fielder. #10 tags up and scores, while #15 tags up from second. The right fielder throws the ball on a rope to third, catching the advancing runner. I’d score SF9, with an RBI, in the box for #20′s at bat. In #10′s box, I’d indicate that he went home, marking it with a #20 next to the line from third to home. In #15′s box, I’d draw a line halfway from second to third, with a cross at the end, indicating he was out on his way from second to third, and I’d mark CS9-5/20 indicating that he was caught stealing, right to third, while #20 was at bat.

It sounds like your way would be to put DP/SF9-5 in #20′s box.

Neither, frankly, sounds correct to me.

By: Karl

Karl — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:58:52 +0000

Well, this was just one scenario. As you can imagine, there are any number of potential DP scenarios that don’t involve a force or reverse-force.

The “other side” is just adamant that “you can’t score two plays on one play!” (to paraphrase). I think that’s nutz, of course, but I’m open to persuasion otherwise, especially if it’s from a scorer at MLB.com (pretty good suckup?)

By: tgirsch

tgirsch — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:50:01 +0000

You could be right. We’ll see what Digg says. Although I still think it’s a case of “caught stealing,” because if the runner had just stayed put at second, there would have been no out to get (although I’ll admit the rules don’t seem to specifically address this). It would be more interesting if a runner on first assumed the ball would drop and ran, and then didn’t get back to first in time and is forced out there. That, in my mind, would constitute a double-play.

By: Karl

Karl — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:45:26 +0000

tgirsch, that’s essentially the reasoning being used by “the other side” alright. I objected based directly on the rules as written, but I suppose I’d get in a lot of trouble if I acted as though certain laws actually meant what they said, too.

===
10.11 DOUBLE AND TRIPLE PLAYS
The official scorer shall credit participation in a double play or triple play to each fielder who earns a putout or an assist when two or three players are put out between the time a pitch is delivered and the time the ball next becomes dead or is next in possession of the pitcher in a pitching position, unless an error or misplay intervenes between putouts.
===

I can see the exception for the strike out there, as the pitch has ostensibly not been “delivered” until the time it either hits the bat or the catcher’s glove. And I am not suggesting it should be “charged to the batter” as when one grounds into a force DP. But the defensive team has clearly earned this score for their actions, IMO.

Rule 10.04b1 addresses the RBI by stating that only in two specific DP cases (“when the batter grounds into a force double play or a reverse-force double play”) is the RBI not counted. The rules are silent on other sorts of DPs.

Seems to me, the defense has earned the DP, and the batter has earned the SF/RBI.